the armed struggle

[tomjez]

Good, leave emotion at the door

no son, releash your anger, khhh

[Vladimir]

Oh by the way what was armed struggle for PKK?

Destroying Kurdistan! As pilling said there were no military operations in non kurdish turkey. And PKK killed more kurds than it killed turkish soldiers...

Intellectuals, "traitors", political opponent, village guard (justified...), family of village guards (a bit less!), teachers....they were kurds!

In 15 years of guerrilla, PKK did not achieve anything on the military ground: probably the worse guerrilla ever. I mean even Nepalese Maoist are better...

The Kurds in South Kurdistan also killed the Kurdish Jash. Cooperate or die.. that’s war Tom. KDP/PUK also killed a lot of opponents. Whole tribes who worked together with Saddam were annihilated.

Easy isn't it. I think that you are blaming everything on the PKK now. Don’t forget the coin has two sides.

The PKK didn’t have the equipment to destroy whole villages, forests, agriculture land, etc.
The Turkish army did have equipment and used it to destroy several villages a long the borders. A Turkish army general already warned the Kurds “watch out or we destroy your homeland.”

And they did. Even before the PKK, the Turkish army destroyed whole villages. If you go to North Kurdistan to left villages, you can see the damage.

Btw, you don’t have pure factual arguments that the PKK killed more Kurds then Turkish soldiers. I think the Turkish army killed also a lot of Kurds who weren't pkk. I don't know if it was more or less.

The Turkish government parlour that "30.000" Turks (actually Kurds) that died because of the "PKK" is stupid. Both the TSK and PKK were responsible for it.

[tomjez]

Mon dieu mon dieu mon dieu

WHY WHY, when I say PKK is bad I'm always accused of defending turkish army.....this is so low. Like "french resistance commited some crime" "oh you're defending the nazis". Yeah right. Where did I defend turkish army here????? Where did I say ONE THING in favor of military????? This is sick, when you defend kurds you're PKK, when you criticiez PKK you're on turkish army's side.

Of course Army has destroyed the Kurdistan, but you can blame PKK as well, because it was their policiy: if the army destroys the kurdistan every kurd will come to us.

Btw, you don’t have pure factual arguments that the PKK killed more Kurds then Turkish soldiers. I think the Turkish army killed also a lot of Kurds who weren't pkk. I don't know if it was more or less.

that's true I don't have a pure factual argument.

For this arguement of turkish governement this is true it is totally stupid. Each one a turk tells that to me I say "what? It's all PKK??? turkish army did not kill a single person in 15 years?? but what are they paid for!!!!". Which often ends the discussion

The Kurds in South Kurdistan also killed the Kurdish Jash. Cooperate or die.. that’s war Tom. KDP/PUK also killed a lot of opponents. Whole tribes who worked together with Saddam were annihilated.

Nope, when you kill the families of the soldiers, this is war crime

The PKK didn’t have the equipment to destroy whole villages, forests, agriculture land, etc.

No but they had the equipment for punishing expeditions...in Dersim they killed whole villages in retaliation. No need of a lot of equipement, in Rwanda or Burundi Hutus did that with axes.

[tomjez]

And you did not reply to that


"what did PKK achieved on military ground???

[shino]

I agree with you Tom that it's useless to continue to wage the war, it's not in the interest of the Kurds. all the suffering and destruction is for Kurds. In a first phase it was necessary to make war so as to prove the existence of the kurdish nation and to wake up the people who slept in assimilation, and because of course it was impossible to fight in a democratic way.
But now the turkish state can no more deny the kurdish identity. particulary with a new done, the autonomous Kurdistan. Moreover in order that the EU and the progressists can bring some democracy in turkey, no justifications must be given to fascists to continue their traditional policy of denying the rights of the kurds.
And know there is a little space to act in a peaceful way, although it is still dangerous to be a human rights activist in turkey.
The war doesn't damage the fascists and the kemalist system. But democracy can.
You 're right Pkk has defaults. But you can't say that they have done nothing for Kurds. they have obtained nothing concret, but they avoided that the Kurds as a nation disappear. and a big achievement is also Med tv, the resurrection of Kurds.
yes, they use often turkish as work language. but you musn't blame them, but the turkish state, during 80 years the kurdish language was forbidden, and they have fought and fight to have the right to learn their mother tongue.
You say they have done nothing for kurdish music. But almost all the k7 and cd of kurdish music are produced by MIR studios, which are financed by them. And actually singers are the greatest arm of pkk, and generally greatest peshmergas of kurdish resistence. in irak Kurdistan when Shivan Perwer made a cassette, hundreds of persons went to join the resistence. and specialists of the kurdish issue often neglect it, but they are the greatest recrutors of kurdish fighters, the greatest creators of kurdish nationalism, and the greatest defenders of kurdish identity.

I think you musn't see pkk just as a group of maoists, mafia, terrorists, stupid persons..., it's not a scientific way to do a research through prejugés (i don't know in english). they are more than that. For a long time they have given hope and proudness to Kurds, and that's allready a lot. and if pkk would'nt have existed, we would'nt speak know about the kurdish issue.
And if PKK and HADEP don't represent the Kurds, so who does?

[tomjez]

HADEP does not exist anymore (since 2002), PKK killed it (opponent) and replaced it by DEHAP.

I think you musn't see pkk just as a group of maoists, mafia, terrorists, stupid persons..., it's not a scientific way to do a research through prejugés (i don't know in english)

This is what PKK IS now. Maybe it was something else, but it is nothing more today.

And actually singers are the greatest arm of pkk, and generally greatest peshmergas of kurdish resistence. in irak Kurdistan when Shivan Perwer made a cassette, hundreds of persons went to join the resistence.

PKK hates Sivan, he was threatened several times by PKK members in Germany (does not like Apo at all!!!)

yes, they use often turkish as work language. but you musn't blame them, but the turkish state, during 80 years the kurdish language was forbidden, and they have fought and fight to have the right to learn their mother tongue.

So PKK as an illegal organisation prefered not to use Kurdish to avoid problems with the state?????? or it is because Apo did not speak kurdish...they don't care about education, people able to think are a danger for them!

You 're right Pkk has defaults. But you can't say that they have done nothing for Kurds. they have obtained nothing concret, but they avoided that the Kurds as a nation disappear. and a big achievement is also Med tv, the resurrection of Kurds.

MED was only öcalan's voice...not so good for kurds.

[tomjez]

I don't know who represent the kurds, I know who does not!!!

In 1999 and 2004, municipal elections.

In 1999: HADEP (problems with PKK and turkish authorities)

Won cities of Agri, Batman, Bingöl, Diyarbakir, Hakkari, Siirt, Van,

In 2004: DEHAP (actually called SHP: they made an alliance with a turkish party and did not participate under DEHAP's name, nor did they tell they were a kurdish party. Öcalan's ordres in Imrali, January 2004)

LOST: Agri, Siirt, Van, Bingöl (!!!), won Tunceli and Sirnak

AKP did won : Van, Urfa, Siirt, Mus, Malatya, Kars, Erzurum, Erzincan, Bitlis, Bingöl (again, !!!!) and Agri....

In some cities more than 60% people voted AKP

So what? DEHAP in a context of democratization managed to make much worse than HADEP in nationalist paranoïa. Wait a minute, would Kurd understand the difference??? Would Kurd stop supporting PKK?????? noooooooooooooo.....

2002 legislatives: DEHAP 6,2 % (whole turkey)

2004 Municipals : 5%...


Oh and after this disaster, the president of SHP (SHP-DEHAP coaltion) accused Barzani and Talabani

[tomjez]

D'ailleurs shino vu que tu es francophone je peux t'envoyer la partie de mon mémoire (tout à fait scientifique) consacrée aux élections....

[Vladimir]

Mon dieu mon dieu mon dieu

WHY WHY, when I say PKK is bad I'm always accused of defending turkish army.....this is so low. Like "french resistance commited some crime" "oh you're defending the nazis". Yeah right. Where did I defend turkish army here????? Where did I say ONE THING in favor of military????? This is sick, when you defend kurds you're PKK, when you criticiez PKK you're on turkish army's side.

Well.. it might be more clear that you oppose both factions, instead of only talking about PKK. That's why I raised the issue.

Of course Army has destroyed the Kurdistan, but you can blame PKK as well, because it was their policiy: if the army destroys the kurdistan every kurd will come to us.

Typical independence movement;).

For this arguement of turkish governement this is true it is totally stupid. Each one a turk tells that to me I say "what? It's all PKK??? turkish army did not kill a single person in 15 years?? but what are they paid for!!!!". Which often ends the discussion

Lol..

Nope, when you kill the families of the soldiers, this is war crime

Then Kurdish parties in Kurdistan did war crimes, Turkey did war crimes, PKK did war crimes, Village guards.. also behaved in a very "criminal" way.

No but they had the equipment for punishing expeditions...in Dersim they killed whole villages in retaliation. No need of a lot of equipement, in Rwanda or Burundi Hutus did that with axes.

Source? I mean Kurdistan as land/agriculture/buildings/etc. Not people.

[Nistiman]

I said I would wait a day before responding, but after letting 3 days pass, now the issue seems a little old. I'm glad others have contributed though.

My point about diaspora Kurds fell on deaf ears (or blind eyes, as the venue would dictate). If you read what I wrote, it is precisely because the Kurds do not live in the same conditions as in Turkey that they can freely support the PKK in the diaspora. So, in the diaspora it becomes clear that the Kurds are not anti-war pacifists who don't believe in the aims of the PKK. Surely, if the Kurds as a people hated the war, they would oppose the war in the West too. Europeans hate the American-led war in Iraq, and so do many Americans...It is not 'self-evident' that just because they do not live within the conflict zone that one becomes 'extremist' or the natural ally of war.

In Turkey, they are AFRAID to support the PKK. And, who could blame them? But, as long as there are those Kurds who are willing to risk their lives for the sake of their liberation, then the rest of us can't complain.

What I do or don't do, or my personal stance has no relevance to this issue whatsoever. I'm not going to get into a personal squabble with anyone in this forum. Even if I am being hypocritical, it doesn't make the armed struggle any less legitimate or worthy.

Truths about the Kurdish people are not the sole property of the Kurds, and I think they are accessible wherever you happen to live, as long as you are open to seeing things as they truly are, rather than how you want them to be.

Painting the PKK as backward, totalitarian, etc, etc, does a major disservice to the Kurds - not just the PKK. Yes, it isn't perfect but in such an environment it is unrealistic to ask for perfection. PKK has created a revolution among the Kurds - it has instigated a revolution in their national consciousness, as well as all aspects of their life - culturally, linguistically, in women's rights, and in their social organization. Whatever their faults, it must be evaluated WITHIN this context.

My support for the armed struggle is in fact not just a 'carte blanche' for war, but rather for the RIGHT of the Kurds to keep and maintain a guerrilla force that can, IF and WHEN needed, protect and fight for their rights. Any 'solution' to the Kurdish problem that seeks to deny the Kurds their right to maintain a guerrilla force is suspicious...

The guerrillas have shown that they can do more than just fight, they can try to make and keep the peace.

The fact that it has utterly failed is not the fault of the PKK but rather the Turkish state.

Good riddance to peace!

[Piling]

What do you think of PKK Death commandos against their own opponents, like PWD (Osman Öcalan) members and so much else Kurds who are threatened or killed just because they are not in the "right line" ?

[tomjez]

Yeah Kurds in Turkey are afraid to support the PKK. Also afraid NOT to support it.

It's useless to talk with you, PKK is nothing anymore in turkey, if you think it is a wonderful party struggling for the rights of kurds with totally desinterested leaders and great ideas...who cares anyway!
No educated kurd in turkey support war or "liberation of kurdistan". If you are not able to see that even PKK is not struggling for independance (officially since 1991...), then stop reading Özgur Politika!

So biji PKK, biji Öcalan (oups sorry, Yasasin PKK, Yasasin öcalan, forgot they spoke only turkish), and geez, I can't wait to see Apo leader of independant kurdistan. I doubt they would gave me a visa though

[tomjez]

Painting the PKK as backward, totalitarian, etc, etc, does a major disservice to the Kurds - not just the PKK.

Painting it as supported and representative of kurds in turkey is a major disservice to kurds as well. And it is totalitarian, yes, what you gonna do.
are you saying that all kurds complaining about it, all kurds telling stories about how was the life when they were in PKK are paid by MIT or Israel?

[Nistiman]

sorry tomjez i couldn't package my insight into a convenient staunchly "pro-Kurdish", emphatically "anti-PKK" format.

would've made discussion easier, i know.

[tomjez]