More then One wife

[AlbaSaab]

please don't compare islamic people to our pure country.
we have been pushed into islam.
we believe in love strongly and only with one woman. we believe that a woman has the equal powers as men. it is islam who belives in killing new born females because they are not male.
they also marry as many times as they want.
if you call your self muslim you must live by these rules.
i am not brainwashed by western world. i have freedom of speech.
and this enables me to explore the real islam.

Is Islam the religion according to the Qu'ran? Or Is Islam something political, because I'm getting more and more confused by posts in here. I thought it was the religion of Muslims.

[freedom+unity]

albasaab i am confused as you are.
muslims follow the qu'ran.
these rules from the qu'ran sometimes misleads people to doing the opposite of what the qu'ran indented to achieve. i think.
people are confused and religion ad's to the confussion.
all religion were built for political purpose.
i believe in xwede(GOD) but not in man made religions.

[AlbaSaab]

albasaab i am confused as you are.
muslims follow the qu'ran.
these rules from the qu'ran sometimes misleads people to doing the opposite of what the qu'ran indented to achieve. i think.
people are confused and religion ad's to the confussion.
all religion were built for political purpose.
i believe in xwede(GOD) but not in man made religions.

So Islam is the religion of Muslims. They are just as bad as Christians for fighting amongst themselves then. If someone professes to be Muslim or Christian, they should follow their holy book. What I see, is Islam as a political authority. I don't profess to know the Qu'ran, but if it's about spirituality, where does politics come into it? Also if they believe that Jesus at least spoke the word of God, why don't they follow what he said, which was to keep away from the world!!! The same goes for Christians, but seeing as this is a forum with a majority of Muslims, (I think), I would like some questions answered. I do keep asking, but haven't receieved a satisfactory reply as yet. All I keep hearing is that the Bible has been edited, and when I ask where, I receive no reply, and contrary to what I have been told regarding the editing, the Bible scripts are all there for all to see, not to mention the historical facts that back up the Bible. But my main issue is: If Muslims DO believe in the Bible, why not ALL of it??

[Piling]

No. They believed that Christians and Jews have received God's revelation, but have transformed and corrupted it, and then Muhammad restaured the real Revelation.

And they believe that Jesus was a Prophet but not God's son (this idea seems very shocking for Muslims as for Jews).

But as former "muslims", Christians and Jews deserves to be protected, though maintained in an inferior status. Only polytheist or heretic within islam should be destroyed.

But of course, between religious law and facts there is a huge difference. For example, Bible is very intolerant toward non-Jews, and Christians normally should not kill no one, even their ennemies... But reality and politics obliged people to make concessions...

[AlbaSaab]

No. They believed that Christians and Jews have received God's revelation, but have transformed and corrupted it, and then Muhammad restaured the real Revelation.

And they believe that Jesus was a Prophet but not God's son (this idea seems very shocking for Muslims as for Jews).

But as former "muslims", Christians and Jews deserves to be protected, though maintained in an inferior status. Only polytheist or heretic within islam should be destroyed.

But of course, between religious law and facts there is a huge difference. For example, Bible is very intolerant toward non-Jews, and Christians normally should not kill no one, even their ennemies... But reality and politics obliged people to make concessions...

"No. They believed that Christians and Jews have received God's revelation, but have transformed and corrupted it, and then Muhammad restaured the real Revelation".

That's what I keep hearing, but no-one has supplied any evidence, let alone an answer to say when, how, or where it has been corrupted. Was it before or after Mohamed?

"But as former "muslims", Christians and Jews deserves to be protected, though maintained in an inferior status. Only polytheist or heretic within islam should be destroyed."

I'm sorry, I don't underastand any of that.


"But of course, between religious law and facts there is a huge difference. For example, Bible is very intolerant toward non-Jews, and Christians normally should not kill no one, even their ennemies... But reality and politics obliged people to make concessions"...[/quote]


Where does the Bible not tolerate non Jews? I'm not talking about so called Christians, I'm talking about true Christains, who do follow the Bible, and they have NO part in politics or killings, just as I'm trying to establish the TRUE meaning and truth of Islam, not how we want the Bible or Qu'ran to be, for our own convenience.

[AlbaSaab]

"And they believe that Jesus was a Prophet but not God's son (this idea seems very shocking for Muslims as for Jews)."

Ok, if Jesus was a prophet, he spoke the word of God, yes?? I am getting no nearer as to why Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, but don't take his words seriously.....apart from the obligitory answer; that the Bible has been edited/corrupted. Now, just for argument's sake, let's say that it has been edited/corrupted........ Prove it to me, or at least show some evidence that points to it. If I were contemplating becoming a Muslim, I would want some definite answers to my questions.

[Piling]

Yeah Jesus for Muslims spoke God 's words, but for a Muslim, New testament was full of mistakes and of falsification. And in fact in the Bible, Jesus never said he was the son of God, and God himself. Paul stated it later.

And concerning what has been corruptend it is simple : Coran is the truth. It has been uncreated (according to the dominant religious school) and exist since the beginning of the Creation. Then all books far from Coran are false. As for Jews all things far from their Thora are false, and for Christians, New Testament is the Truth. No need to prove it. Beliefs refuse proof and reasons, it is just a question of faith.

And for convincing you, it is not my care, I am not christian, nor muslim. I just explain their theology.

And for Islam, God decides of conversion : "He blinds who He wants, He leads who He likes on the right Path". Then you could be Christian as so long as you wish, according to Coran, it is God's will

[AlbaSaab]

Yeah Jesus for Muslims spoke God 's words, but for a Muslim, New testament was full of mistakes and of falsification. And in fact in the Bible, Jesus never said he was the son of God, and God himself. Paul stated it later.

And for convincing you, it is not my care, I am not christian, nor muslim. I just explain their theology.

And for Islam, God decides of conversion : "He blinds who He wants, He leads who He likes on the right Path". Then you could be Christian as so long as you wish, according to Coran, it is God's will

"New testament was full of mistakes and of falsification"

^^^^^^^
Thank you, that's all I want to know; The theology.

Didn't Mohammed tell Muslims to read the Bible though? If he did there are gross contradictions regarding what Mohammed said, and what is actually taught to Muslims. And I still haven't had an answer to how/where/when the Bible was supposed to have been corrupted and edited etc. No-one seems to know, but are quite happy to say that it's a fact.

[Piling]

Didn't Mohammed tell Muslims to read the Bible though?

No. MUhammad said : I bring to you the true revelation.

And as for the falsification of the Bible, it depends of point of views : for a muslim, if the bible is opposed to the Coran it has been falsificated. For a Christian, the Bible should announce the birth of Jesus, while for a Jews, the fact that God could ,have a child is nonsense.

From a historical point of view, the Bible was written very late after the events it narrates. First texts are in Hebrew, then in Aramaic, some part were translated in Greek, etc. Then a huge time passed after the redaction of the text (around 1st millenium BC) and the creation of the world.

As I am not religious, I don't say "falsification" but the Bible copied many parts of Sumerian/Akkadian mythology. Then it is not God's word, but just the reaport of ancient myths. At the beginning of the Genesis, Yaveh is not only the unique God, but just one of them, and he asked only to Hebrew to adore him and no others.

And much things in the New Testalment are in complete contradiction with Christianism : Jesus affirmed all the time to be there only for Jews, and for reforming Israel, and to restaure Israel, not for saving other people. (Samaritan woman episod, for example).

In fact Paul of Tarsus was the real creator of christianism when he tries to invent a Judaism for "all the world."

But if you are a convinced Christian, you have no need to debate with a convinced Muslim. You want to assert that you are right and you contradictor will still believe that he is right. As far as I can constate, no believer is ready to accept to lost his faith just in a discuss, then debating on religion is so useless.

[Diri]

please don't compare islamic people to our pure country.
we have been pushed into islam.
we believe in love strongly and only with one woman. we believe that a woman has the equal powers as men. it is islam who belives in killing new born females because they are not male.
they also marry as many times as they want.
if you call your self muslim you must live by these rules.
i am not brainwashed by western world. i have freedom of speech.
and this enables me to explore the real islam.

Freedom+Unity - that is an out-right LIE...

If you don't KNOW something - don't ACCUSE it of something you don't know anything about... You may have "freedom of speech" but you don't know how to use it appearently...

BEFORE Islam came, the Arabs used to slay and leave their baby girls out in the desert for the voltures to feed on...

When Islam came - this was FORBIDDEN! So don't pervert the message of Islam...

There ARE people who ABUSE Islam for their political and economic interests - but those are NOT Good Muslims...

[Diri]

Didn't Mohammed tell Muslims to read the Bible though?

No. MUhammad said : I bring to you the true revelation.

And as for the falsification of the Bible, it depends of point of views : for a muslim, if the bible is opposed to the Coran it has been falsificated. For a Christian, the Bible should announce the birth of Jesus, while for a Jews, the fact that God could ,have a child is nonsense.

From a historical point of view, the Bible was written very late after the events it narrates. First texts are in Hebrew, then in Aramaic, some part were translated in Greek, etc. Then a huge time passed after the redaction of the text (around 1st millenium BC) and the creation of the world.

As I am not religious, I don't say "falsification" but the Bible copied many parts of Sumerian/Akkadian mythology. Then it is not God's word, but just the reaport of ancient myths. At the beginning of the Genesis, Yaveh is not only the unique God, but just one of them, and he asked only to Hebrew to adore him and no others.

And much things in the New Testalment are in complete contradiction with Christianism : Jesus affirmed all the time to be there only for Jews, and for reforming Israel, and to restaure Israel, not for saving other people. (Samaritan woman episod, for example).

In fact Paul of Tarsus was the real creator of christianism when he tries to invent a Judaism for "all the world."

But if you are a convinced Christian, you have no need to debate with a convinced Muslim. You want to assert that you are right and you contradictor will still believe that he is right. As far as I can constate, no believer is ready to accept to lost his faith just in a discuss, then debating on religion is so useless.

Thank you Piling... I am glad you too stated what I stated yesterday; Paulus was the main person behind Christianity and it's theology - basing it on his PERSONAL interpretations rather than the objective truths...

The REAL "Christians" were adherents of Judaism and followed the MOST STRICT Judaism - known as Orthodox Jews today... Read the book I recommended Lorri - The Dead Sea Scrolls... By Michael Leigh or something... Let me check that!

[Piling]

"it is islam who belives in killing new born females because they are not male. "

WRONG. As Diri said, Sharia forbids it.


"they also marry as many times as they want. "

WRONG. Only 4. Yezidis could have so many wives as they want, not muslims. And in ancient judaism also, islam limited polygamy in fact.

Before criticizing a religion and a civilisation, let's it study more seriously, please.

[freedom+unity]

so what you and diri think that you can change the qu'ran.
mohammed read the bible because he copied the ideology of christinanity.

[Piling]

As Muhammad could not read Syriac, Amaramic nor Greek, I wonder how he could read the Bible. But obviously Muhammad was inspired by Christianism and Judaism, as Christianism was issued from Judaism.

And concerning the possible changing of Quran it was a very important political and religious question in the first centuries of islam, about a "uncreated" Quran, then eternal, or a "created" Quran, then a historical version which could be changed to follow the evolution of society. Under Abbasids, caliphs decided that Quran was uncreated, and then absolute and eternal. But it was not a definite dogma, and things could be changed.

[AlbaSaab]

As Muhammad could not read Syriac, Amaramic nor Greek, I wonder how he could read the Bible. But obviously Muhammad was inspired by Christianism and Judaism, as Christianism was issued from Judaism.

And concerning the possible changing of Quran it was a very important political and religious question in the first centuries of islam, about a "uncreated" Quran, then eternal, or a "created" Quran, then a historical version which could be changed to follow the evolution of society. Under Abbasids, caliphs decided that Quran was uncreated, and then absolute and eternal. But it was not a definite dogma, and things could be changed.

Wasn't he illiterate?