Hypothetical Question for Kurdish People

[Djembe]

Hypothetical Question: What if Kurdish People in Turkey have the following rights, would there be still need for Kurdish Independent movements for Turkey’s Kurdish population.
1. They have accomplished Language freedom
a. Kurdish TV
b. Kurdish Newspaper
c. Kurdish Institutes
d. Kurdish Language Education
e. Kurdish Language Services local governments
f. Kurdish Letters are part of the alphabet
2. They have de-centralized local governments that have
a. Control of Education
b. Health
c. Municipal Police for traffic, security
d. Taxation Authority
3. Cultural Rights
a. Kurdish Name for cities, villages, towns


Or none of these are satisfactory, Kurdish state must be established uniting Kurdish People of Turkey, Iran, Syria and Iraq.



What is the objective of Kurdish People in Turkey

1. For Kurdish Cultural/Language Rights and de-centralization of government services within Unity.

If this is the case, Turkish public will have to give these legitimate rights. They already signed EU treaty for giving cultural rights and municipal government autonomy.

2. Federal State with Kurdish Autonomy.

If this is the case, Turkish public will have doubts. Yes, Kurdish people demands above is legitimate. However, if they want Kurdish state which is similar to Iraq, Turkish public will doubt about Kurdish people ultimate intention. And they will have a bargaining position with the 'give little' as they would want the border of such state to be minimal. Does the border includes only Kurdish population is majority. What happens Antep, Adiyaman, Mardin, Igdir, Kars, Elazig.

Such move also deepen the gap between Turkish population in west vs Kurdish people living in west. What will happen to economic situation?

3. Independent State

Such move will have negative reaction from Turkish Public. They will became more nationalist and MHP and Kemalist CHP will take over.


4. Independent State with unity of Kurdish People.

This will cause regional war where Kurdish people will lose the war.


What do you guys think?

[talsor]

Your post is naive and pointless , kind of remind me of peom I read as a child .

If all the axes of the world become one Axe
what a great axe would it be
if all the tree of the world became one tree
what a great tree would be
if all the men of the world became one man
what a great man would he be
if the great man , hit the great tree with the great axe
what a great noice would it make


try to focus on the realistic issues and do not go too far in your head thinking you know everything . for starter stop arresting kurdish kids and sentencing them to 20 years for throwing a rock at the police . You have a pethatic country .

[Kulka]

i think you give me the winning numbers for the next lottery. you know them, right? like you know Kurds will loose the war. - by the way - do you have any other dreams, or that is the only one?

[kurd-sthanam]

as a kurdish "yurtsever" in turkish as a socialist I would say this: you dont know what opressed people nationalism or opressing nationalism is. first of all BDP and its allies are not nationalist since you can compare with MHP. MHP is a party of opressing people and BDP is a party that stance against opressing and anti-nationalists as they claim. Its the party who are allies with socialists and real democrats. Its the party who stayed up against the opression of their people. very inteligent to compare.

secondly, if kurds wants independence IT IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS OR IZMIR'S ANKARA'S BUSINESS!!! But no you are completly self nationalist and double-faced that you speak about "what we want more". IT IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS WHAT WE WANT. if we want official language or national rights it is not you business and we would not ask for ankara for permission, right is right. if you dont give and would kill us, we will fight rather to be a slave.

It is not hard to read BDP program!
http://www.bdp.org.tr/hakkimizda/program.html

[Djembe]

as a kurdish "yurtsever" in turkish as a socialist I would say this: you dont know what opressed people nationalism or opressing nationalism is. first of all BDP and its allies are not nationalist since you can compare with MHP. MHP is a party of opressing people and BDP is a party that stance against opressing and anti-nationalists as they claim. Its the party who are allies with socialists and real democrats. Its the party who stayed up against the opression of their people. very inteligent to compare.

secondly, if kurds wants independence IT IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS OR IZMIR'S ANKARA'S BUSINESS!!! But no you are completly self nationalist and double-faced that you speak about "what we want more". IT IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS WHAT WE WANT. if we want official language or national rights it is not you business and we would not ask for ankara for permission, right is right.

First, i want to remind you the word of 'Hypothetical'.

Your point is taken for the first paragraph. I concur, (while I still have reservation for nationalism in general) Kurdish nationalism differences from MHP. However, as my last point of uniting Kurdish is very similar to MHP's 'Turan' ideal. No? And especially, BDP did not declare this as an official program. However, I suspect they have hidden agenda of wanting more than what they say on their party program.

However, it is Ankara business if you want the independence as there needs to be a 'border'.

[kurd-sthanam]

as a kurdish "yurtsever" in turkish as a socialist I would say this: you dont know what opressed people nationalism or opressing nationalism is. first of all BDP and its allies are not nationalist since you can compare with MHP. MHP is a party of opressing people and BDP is a party that stance against opressing and anti-nationalists as they claim. Its the party who are allies with socialists and real democrats. Its the party who stayed up against the opression of their people. very inteligent to compare.

secondly, if kurds wants independence IT IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS OR IZMIR'S ANKARA'S BUSINESS!!! But no you are completly self nationalist and double-faced that you speak about "what we want more". IT IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS WHAT WE WANT. if we want official language or national rights it is not you business and we would not ask for ankara for permission, right is right.

First, i want to remind you the word of 'Hypothetical'.

Your point is taken for the first paragraph. I concur, (while I still have reservation for nationalism in general) Kurdish nationalism differences from MHP. However, as my last point of uniting Kurdish is very similar to MHP's 'Turan' ideal. No? And especially, BDP did not declare this as an official program. However, I suspect they have hidden agenda of wanting more than what they say on their party program.

However, it is Ankara business if you want the independence as there needs to be a 'border'.

hey militarist nationalist, double faced? what f*ck is a border?!

[kurd-sthanam]

IF BPD WANTS MORE OR EVEN KURDISTAN, IT IS OPPRESSED PEOPLE NATIONALISM AND NATIONALISM WHO HAVE RIGHT.

[Djembe]

hey militarist nationalist, double faced? what f*ck is a border?!

Border between independent Kurdistan and Turkey. Did you think you can take anything you want? That is none of Ankara's business?

[Djembe]

IF BPD WANTS MORE OR EVEN KURDISTAN, IT IS OPPRESSED PEOPLE NATIONALISM AND NATIONALISM WHO HAVE RIGHT.

But you are missing the point. If that is the ultimate objective, there is no point to discuss about 'cultural rights', 'autonomy', 'political rights'. No? I was looking at the map once. Kurdistan. It was from Kars to Malatya, Hakkari to Mersin. Do you think that is none of Turkey's business. This is not want I wanted to discuss with this post. My objective was this:

Depending on what Kurdish people in Turkey want, there could be different reaction from Turkey. Whether you like it or not, every action comes with a reaction. You need to give me realistic prediction about 'what move of Kurdish people will have what circumstances'.

[Azamat]

@Djembe

The current reciprocals of the issues you listed are the result of Kurdish people having to live in a Turkish nation-state. The Turkish Republic does not take any Kurdish national representation into account, as any governing entity(political, military, economic, etc) is solely reserved for serving the Turkish cause. This lack of representation and self-determination means that Kurds, as a rule of thumb, are secondary citizens who are inferior on every front. There will be no room for Kurdish national advancement and as long as we remain being deprived of self-determination, we will never take our place in the international community of advanced nations. Or in other words, we will remain the insignificant, uneducated mountain dwellers.

Therefore, I think that we, being the indigenous people of eastern anatolia, are entitled to way more than just language/cultural rights and governmental decentralization. Independence is of course the option that I personally favor the most, because that's the only option which provides us national advancement and international sifnificance. But as this will most likely lead to war, federalism with Kurdish autonomy is for now probably the most achievable and practical solution. Though I doubt it will be like anything we're seeing today in Southern Kurdistan.

That does not mean I have relinquished my yearning for Kurdish independence of course. Whether it is possible or not, independence is what I'd like my nation to see gaining, as I feel only this does enough justice to the standards of my nation.

[kurd-sthanam]

IF BPD WANTS MORE OR EVEN KURDISTAN, IT IS OPPRESSED PEOPLE NATIONALISM AND NATIONALISM WHO HAVE RIGHT.

But you are missing the point. If that is the ultimate objective, there is no point to discuss about 'cultural rights', 'autonomy', 'political rights'. No? I was looking at the map once. Kurdistan. It was from Kars to Malatya, Hakkari to Mersin. Do you think that is none of Turkey's business. This is not want I wanted to discuss with this post. My objective was this:

Depending on what Kurdish people in Turkey want, there could be different reaction from Turkey. Whether you like it or not, every action comes with a reaction. You need to give me realistic prediction about 'what move of Kurdish people will have what circumstances'.

Kurdistan is not were kurdish people are, its were kurdish nationalists and inpedendence wanters have majority! (east to euphrat)

[Azamat]

IF BPD WANTS MORE OR EVEN KURDISTAN, IT IS OPPRESSED PEOPLE NATIONALISM AND NATIONALISM WHO HAVE RIGHT.

But you are missing the point. If that is the ultimate objective, there is no point to discuss about 'cultural rights', 'autonomy', 'political rights'. No? I was looking at the map once. Kurdistan. It was from Kars to Malatya, Hakkari to Mersin. Do you think that is none of Turkey's business. This is not want I wanted to discuss with this post. My objective was this:

Depending on what Kurdish people in Turkey want, there could be different reaction from Turkey. Whether you like it or not, every action comes with a reaction. You need to give me realistic prediction about 'what move of Kurdish people will have what circumstances'.

Kurdistan is not were kurdish people are, its were kurdish nationalists and inpedendence wanters have majority! (east to euphrat)

That is a foolish way of determining Kurdistan's borders, and it will undermine our cause. I recommend you to look at Armenian irredentist forums and see what THEY take into consideration on this subject.

[Djembe]

@Djembe

The current reciprocals of the issues you listed are the result of Kurdish people having to live in a Turkish nation-state. The Turkish Republic does not take any Kurdish national representation into account, as any governing entity(political, military, economic, etc) is solely reserved for supporting the Turkish cause. This lack of representation and self-determination means that Kurds, as a rule of thumb, are secondary citizens who are inferior on every front. There will be no room for Kurdish national advancement and as long as we remain being deprived of self-determination, we will never take our place in the international community of advanced nations. Or in other words, we will remain the insignificant, uneducated mountain dwellers.

Therefore, I think that we, being the indigenous people of eastern anatolia, are entitled to way more than just language/cultural rights and governmental decentralization. Independence is of course the option that I personally favor the most, because that's the only option which provides us national advancement and international sifnificance. But as this will most likely lead to war, federalism with Kurdish autonomy is probably the most achievable and practical solution. Though I doubt it will be like anything we're seeing today in Southern Kurdistan.

I agree with you that Turkish Republic does not take Kurdish national representation into account at the moment. And my personal opinion i.e. Quebec, Canada model would be an ideal. And I strongly believe that better cultural, political, economic and social status of Kurdish people will lead 'integration' rather than 'assimilation' and most of them will be willing to be living within. There will be always people with something like 'Turan' utopia but that is given.

[ideas]

What is the objective of Kurdish People in Turkey

Independence. the KRG has proved that no one cares about Kurds as much as Kurds. In 5 years the KRG has built 3000 new schools where as under Arab rule, in 70 years they built 3000 schools, likewise under Arab rule we have 2 universities, while now we have 20 again in just 5 years. My own opinion is that I do not want to live with a Turk, and I'm not racist I just don't want to live with a Turk

3. Independent State

Such move will have negative reaction from Turkish Public. They will became more nationalist and MHP and Kemalist CHP will take over.

So? that is not of our concern, your country can sort it's own trash can out.

4. Independent State with unity of Kurdish People.

This will cause regional war where Kurdish people will lose the war.

[/quote]

Not necessarily, we are in no rush, and independence will not come soon, what we have in Iraq right now is virtual independence which can be used as a platform, we are building up our economy off course nature has not been kind to us becuase we are landlocked, however in 50 years when Kurdish population in Anatolia doubles, who knows where else Kurds will be a majority, what we need to do is make the KRG attractive, to show Kurds in Anatolia that a free Kurdistan would be much more viable, a modern and high-tech Kurdistan will attract Kurds, they will see that it can be done and the lies from the Turks will eventually fade.

An example of this can be seen in Armenia where the Armenians were encouraging 'Yazidi' nationalism in the 90's becuase Kurds there thought that Kurds are 'inferior' and they even succeeded, in the 90's many Kurds in Armenia, this angered the big Yazidi community in southern-Kurdistan, but off course in the 90's we were in no position to do anything about it, however the educated Kurds in Armenian refused to accept the lies, and they opened small newspapers to try and counter the lies that had been spread, that however failed due to lack of funds, in 2005 however the Kurdish government had money, and began to help the Kurds in Armenian financially, also Yazidis from Armenian visited their holy site in Lalish, duhok that gave us a chance to re-educate them, and since then the Armenian efforts have been falling.

Every other Kurdish uprising has been un-planned, rushed and ultimately failed, this time while we have all the platforms for independence, we are in no rush, as a landlocked Kurdish would have no significance in this world.

As for us losing a war, not necessarily, no land force can beat us in our mountains, it would be impossible for any force without air-support to beat us in our mountains, and there is evidence of that as we beat the Iraqi army in 1964 as back then the Iraqi air force was not that great, they however acquired a bigger air force later on which helped them against us, since we had virtually no air defense, so you see Kurdistan is easy to defend, we just need good air-defense and a trained force, also the middle east is going through a hard time, and it's being split between shia-sunni lines, and since we are split between two sunni, and two shia countries, there is room for negotiation, like I said for an independent Kurdistan planning is required, and we are in no rush.

[Kulka]

afarin my brother. as much as i know we have two kurdish ladies as air force pilots in Kurdistan.