Could Kurdish Independence be actually good for Turkey?

[Djembe]

Van
Mus
Hakkari
Sirnak
Batman
Mardin
Diyarbakir
Siirt
Bitlis

These are the cities may vote for Kurdish Independence. Well, kind of! BDP vote may not be enough for such independence though. Their vote is approximately 50 percent. That is not enough for independence. We have very ambitious Kurdish nationalist here and in 'Northern Kurdistan'. But would there be enough for independence? Would Kurdish living in west vote for independence? I mean my job is in Istanbul, my family is there. My children speak Turkish, why would I want independence? And if there is such independence, what percentage of Kurds who want 'Kurdish autonomy would also support total independence? I mean, i would think twice as Turkey became EU, my rights in such state would be much better than Kurdistan of middle east surrounded by Iran, Iraq and Syria.

Ok, let us assume that is the case. This actually would be good for Turkey. They get rid of one of the biggest issue for Turkey. No more political headache. They don't have to worry about language rights. No more subsidies to underdeveloped region. After separation, Turkish GDP per capita would be significantly higher.

So, why would Turkish Government would not want such thing? It could be good for Turkey. What is the value for Turkey to keep Kurdistan? Natural Resources? What is it? They can easily colonize Independent Kurdistan as they are dependent to Turkey in terms of its economic influence. The only way to out to world with no shores.

[Azamat]

This view on the matter does make sense, altough the only Turks I've seen calling for that so far are the fascists, who want to preserve Turkish 'purity', with no Kurds in their country.

[Djembe]

This view on the matter does make sense, altough the only Turks I've seen calling for that so far are the fascists, who want to preserve Turkish 'purity', with no Kurds in their country.

Lol. Nationalist want the purity but they want to keep land and Kurdish people should go to Southern Kurdistan. lol. Looks like they want it all.

But I am not sure what Turkish purity you are talking about. My homeland, European side of Turkey are full of Bulgarian, Albania and other Balkan migrants. And Anatolia is more like Caucasian, Kurdish people. Turkish concept is not like a Kurdish,Japan,German (please correct me if I am wrong), Turkish in Turkey is more like 'American'.

[Azamat]

This view on the matter does make sense, altough the only Turks I've seen calling for that so far are the fascists, who want to preserve Turkish 'purity', with no Kurds in their country.

Lol. Nationalist want the purity but they want to keep land and Kurdish people should go to Southern Kurdistan. lol. Looks like they want it all.

Yeah, but that will certainly not happen.

But I am not sure what Turkish purity you are talking about. My homeland, European side of Turkey are full of Bulgarian, Albania and other Balkan migrants. And Anatolia is more like Caucasian, Kurdish people. Turkish concept is not like a Kurdish,Japan,German (please correct me if I am wrong), Turkish in Turkey is more like 'American'.

It's what they consider 'pure'. The fact is that not a single nation in the world is of homogenous origin.

[Djembe]

It must not happen. Kurdish people are part of Turkey and while they are second class citizens without their cultural, political and democratic contribution. This must change. Turkey must work on to integrate Kurdish people as first class of Turkey within Turkey. As a head of a multiracial family of Turkish and Senegalese, I do not understand what is the big deal for the purity.

[Kurdistano]

Van
Mus
Hakkari
Sirnak
Batman
Mardin
Diyarbakir
Siirt
Bitlis

These are the cities may vote for Kurdish Independence. Well, kind of! BDP vote may not be enough for such independence though.

using BDP Votes as a sign for which regions might be pro independence is kind of stupid. Sorry but this is my opinion.

Just 2 Years ago in the local elections BDP won in Dersim but this Year the CHP won and this only cause the leader of CHP is a Kurd and belongs to one of the big Clans in Dersim. Just two years ago AKP won in Mardin with 45% of the Votes and this Year BDP candidate won with 60% does that mean that in the two years 30% of the People changed their mind for independence? This is ridiculous.

Just 2 Years ago in Igdir the BDP won and the Region is surly ~70% Kurdish. I was there. In some other Regions like Elazig the BDP candidate was locked in last minute and so there was no candidate in Elazig. Thats why BDP got 0! votes in Elazig. This was never the Case. In Bingöl the People are basically half nationalistic and half Religious this gets obvious from most of the elections till now. Elections are just showing in which party the People have hopes not how much percentage consider themselves kurdish or want independence. I have to know this cause I myself have relatives which are 100% Kurdish and Pro Kurdish but think the AKP might be the only party which could help them cause the Kurdish Parties are closed from time to time.

Or take Erzurum as example. The Southern parts are mainly Kurdish. Two Years ago when the BDP had no candidate there, there were almost no votes for them. But this year the Votes increased up to 50-60% in the Kurdish Regions of Erzurum.

And you have also to note, that the BDP Voters are mainly Nationalistic Kurds and do vote for BDP just because they are so hardcore Kurdish. There is no other benefit in voting for the BDP because Kurdish Parties in Anatolia are usually very poor in compare to turkish parties. If the kurdish parties would get any help from the state be sure the Votes would increase even more drastically as they did in this elections.

[alan131210]

election is not a referendum , if turkey is genuine for kurdish independence , bring in EU to implement a referendum and see what happens ....

[Djembe]

Just 2 Years ago in the local elections BDP won in Dersim but this Year the CHP won and this only cause the leader of CHP is a Kurd and belongs to one of the big Clans in Dersim. Just two years ago AKP won in Mardin with 45% of the Votes and this Year BDP candidate won with 60% does that mean that in the two years 30% of the People changed their mind for independence? This is ridiculous.

Oh, i guess this is a standard here. If you are responding a Turkish, there must be some sort of insult to be associated in the post i.e. stupid. Anyway.

How is it ridiculous? If you claim votes are constantly changing, that means Kurdish people do have different priorities than nationalists. I mean if I really want independence, I would want to vote to reflect this in every political act I do. I would want vote for only party pushing for independence or at least I would push for the party that is for autonomy. Based on your post, I understand that Kurdish support for BDP is not constant. It is changing. That means they have different criteria when voting. That means the support for such independence is not guarantee either. BDP vote did not change dramatically over 10-20 years. Below 7 percent above 6 percent average. What is the Kurdish population in Turkey? 20 percent? 25 percent? What I understand from your posting is that Kurdish possible voting for independence is no GUARANTEE. You actually support the idea you claim stupid.

When a Kurdish person vote for independence, do you think 'the idea of getting independence is only motivation?

What about his business in the Turkish part after possible independence, retirement savings, retirement income, his or her Kurdish relatives who happens to stay in Turkey's side..Don't you think they have an impact on their decision.

[alan131210]

you might have 5% assimilated or mixed kurds , but majority will vote for independence in the Kurdish cities .

[Djembe]

you might have 5% assimilated or mixed kurds , but majority will vote for independence in the Kurdish cities .

I disagree on 5 percent with has no scientific base. However, I somehow agree with you that the majority probably could vote for independence in the Kurdish cities.

[Kurdistano]

Oh, i guess this is a standard here. If you are responding a Turkish, there must be some sort of insult to be associated in the post i.e. stupid. Anyway.

Djembe. I said to believe a Election is a referendum is stupid and I did not say that because you are turkish.

How is it ridiculous? If you claim votes are constantly changing, that means Kurdish people do have different priorities than nationalists. I mean if I really want independence, I would want to vote to reflect this in every political act I do. I would want vote for only party pushing for independence or at least I would push for the party that is for autonomy. Based on your post, I understand that Kurdish support for BDP is not constant. It is changing. That means they have different criteria when voting.

The Kurdish issue is now going on for over 80 Years. You cant expect constantly support for a Party after so many massacres and suppressions in the East. Many People are just tired. But if you let them Vote in a referendum made by the EU you will see the Results. Otherwise which elections are you going to take as reference please. The elections this year or the elections 4 years later. and how about when for example Dersim is again voting for BDP and lets say Batman is going in AKP hand what than? are we going to change Batman through Dersim? This is ridiculous. Over 50% of Turks are hardcore against a independence of Kurdistan so why are not so many Turks voting for MHP a ultra nationalistic party instead for AKP?

That means the support for such independence is not guarantee either. BDP vote did not change dramatically over 10-20 years. Below 7 percent above 6 percent average. What is the Kurdish population in Turkey? 20 percent? 25 percent? What I understand from your posting is that Kurdish possible voting for independence is no GUARANTEE. You actually support the idea you claim stupid.

Okay is the only reason you even started such a discussion about a free Kurdistan was to cut Regions out from it? The EU, human rights etc notice election after election that there are no democratic elections in the east and that the People are suppressed by the military and police. And other factors like economic of course play a Role. Just guarantee the People to become independence if they vote for this and let the EU make this referendum and lets see the results. But how do you even expect the People to vote constantly for the BDP if since 20 Years now they see constantly the Parties get closed and there Vote gone for nothing? The people simply dont believe the BDP could change something. If the turkish state wasnt that afraid it would change this undemocratic 10% fold which scares many possible voters.

What about his business in the Turkish part after possible independence, retirement savings, retirement income, his or her Kurdish relatives who happens to stay in Turkey's side..Don't you think they have an impact on their decision.

Only Kurds living in Kurdistan have the right to vote not me not any partly assimilated Kurd from a turkish city. After the Elections they can move back to Kurdistan if they want.

Like I mentioned just let the Kurds have independence and let a third party like EU or UNO make a referendum and see how they will vote.

[Djembe]

Djembe. I said to believe a Election is a referendum is stupid and I did not say that because you are turkish.

Yes, your point is taken. Too much emphasis my Turkishness so far, I misunderstood. But, I insist that election result is related to possible referendum. In my opinion, there following groups in Kurdish group in terms of their political choice. Most Kurdish are not happy about their lack of cultural and democratic rights. And they have every reason to believe that. However, they are also diverse.

1. Religious Kurdish. There are significant Kurdish people are religious and they are not really too much motivated about 'Kurdish nationalism'. They may not like their lack of Kultural rights, lack of economic situation but they are far from Kurdish nationalism many display here. They are gladly vote for AKP which offers them some economic satisfaction and religious sensitiveness.

2. Assimilated Kurdish people. They are either living in west for a long time ago, they are mixed with non-Kurdish ethnic groups. They are under influence by various influence i.e. pop culture, integrated with non-Kurdish people, they are too busy with their life, work, job, business, wealth, summer holidays etc. They are mostly not motivated by politics and nationalism that much.

3. Alawi, leftist, former socialist Kurdish people who are mostly leaning left. These groups mostly living in Kurdistan or recent migrants to west. They are diverse, poor, rich, educated, non educated. I think their common denominator is being left and nationalist. And many in the forum looks like in this group.

Religious Kurdish people may vote for independence but most likely they will not. These group is influenced by mostly religious groups, religion and economic development. And possible independent Kurdish region will not satisfy them. The independent Kurdish region most likely poorer than Turkey, and these Kurdish people are not that comfortable with the 'left/nationalist' Kurdish people because of ideological differences.

Assimilated Kurdish people. I don't see them voting for independence here. People do not like to vote for unknown. There are many unknown questions about independent Kurdistan. Are they going to be economically viable. There are lots of things these Kurdish people will consider. Many of them have their job, business, houses, retirement plans. They will worry about losing what they already have. They will worry about health care, social security and other economic realities in independent Kurdistan. And especially, they will think that independence will mean a country is more closer to middle east than Turkey. No sea shore. Depending on mostly Turkey and surrounded by enemy countries like Iran, Iraq, Syria. Don't you think they will consider all of these?

Third group will vote for independence. For sure. They are motivated by nationalism. But are they influential enough to convince other groups.

The Kurdish issue is now going on for over 80 Years. You cant expect constantly support for a Party after so many massacres and suppressions in the East. Many People are just tired. But if you let them Vote in a referendum made by the EU you will see the Results. Otherwise which elections are you going to take as reference please. The elections this year or the elections 4 years later. and how about when for example Dersim is again voting for BDP and lets say Batman is going in AKP hand what than? are we going to change Batman through Dersim? This is ridiculous. Over 50% of Turks are hardcore against a independence of Kurdistan so why are not so many Turks voting for MHP a ultra nationalistic party instead for AKP?

Well, they will not constantly support for a party, but I can expect them to support for a party that has an agenda for Kurdish agenda.

Okay is the only reason you even started such a discussion about a free Kurdistan was to cut Regions out from it? The EU, human rights etc notice election after election that there are no democratic elections in the east and that the People are suppressed by the military and police. And other factors like economic of course play a Role. Just guarantee the People to become independence if they vote for this and let the EU make this referendum and lets see the results. But how do you even expect the People to vote constantly for the BDP if since 20 Years now they see constantly the Parties get closed and there Vote gone for nothing? The people simply dont believe the BDP could change something. If the turkish state wasnt that afraid it would change this undemocratic 10% fold which scares many possible voters.

OK. Elections in Turkey, there is not corruption. The Kurdish people are freely voting the party they choice. I don't see any evidence that support your claim about election is not being free. And 10 percent threshold does not make much differences. BDP get 6.5 percent vote and they get 33 members. MHP get 13 percent vote and get 55 members. So 10 percent threshold does not make difference.

[alan131210]

comparing a referendum to an election is pure stupidity . in KRG in 2005 referendum 98.8% voted for referendum while in election the 2 main kurdish parties gained 57% of the votes . you are confused or you just dont want to admit that north kurdistan wants/should be independent and that STILL most turks are against it. if your worried about financial situation of these kurds which i think is the opposite , are you forgetting that south kurdistan has 60 billion barrels of reserve oil and 200 trillion cubic feet meter of gas ??? this will not only feed both kurdistan but the whole of middle east .

its the only way for turkey to get out of the issue , let kurdistan go like north Sudan did with south . or the war and the issue will carry on.

[Djembe]

comparing a referendum to an election is pure stupidity . in KRG in 2005 referendum 98.8% voted for referendum while in election the 2 main kurdish parties gained 57% of the votes . you are confused or you just dont want to admit that north kurdistan wants/should be independent and that STILL most turks are against it. if your worried about financial situation of these kurds which i think is the opposite , are you forgetting that south kurdistan has 60 billion barrels of reserve oil and 200 trillion cubic feet meter of gas ??? this will not only feed both kurdistan but the whole of middle east .

its the only way for turkey to get out of the issue , let kurdistan go like north Sudan did with south . or the war and the issue will carry on.

Alan mentioned stupidity! Wow, I did not expect anything better from you anyway.

Check this and now talk to me about 57 percent. Are you claiming that 43 percent is not pro Kurdish?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurd ... tion,_2009

It is not admitting, it is my opinion and it has valid grounds. I AM AGAINST Kurdistan independence. I already mentioned that. And my opinion has merits.

Rosy vision you have. And you are relying on oil so much. First of all the oil resources is shared by Iraq in general. There is an agreement of oil sharing for whole Iraq. Also, Southern Kurdistan is not a independent nation. Besides, we all see nations with oil, i.e. Azerbaijan, Iran, Iraq, Venezuela, Nigeria where oil did not significantly change the economic of the society. They world is changing. The dynamics of wealth of a nation is different now. And importance of oil is reduced significantly. Now, nations are changing their energy policies to cut oil dependencies to minimum. Did last 6 years, due to oil, did Kurdistan became a Qatar or something? Iraq is dependent on surrounding countries for outside world. You don't expect Syria, Iran, Iraq, Turkey to help a country that has just taking the piece from their country, do you? Kirkuk status is not resolved. If Southern Kurdistan get independence, the first war will be against Iraq because of Kirkuk. Now your American friends there, power balances will change dramatically when your American friends leave.

[ideas]

comparing a referendum to an election is pure stupidity . in KRG in 2005 referendum 98.8% voted for referendum while in election the 2 main kurdish parties gained 57% of the votes . you are confused or you just dont want to admit that north kurdistan wants/should be independent and that STILL most turks are against it. if your worried about financial situation of these kurds which i think is the opposite , are you forgetting that south kurdistan has 60 billion barrels of reserve oil and 200 trillion cubic feet meter of gas ??? this will not only feed both kurdistan but the whole of middle east .

its the only way for turkey to get out of the issue , let kurdistan go like north Sudan did with south . or the war and the issue will carry on.

Alan mentioned stupidity! Wow, I did not expect anything better from you anyway.


Check this and now talk to me about 57 percent. Are you claiming that 43 percent is not pro Kurdish?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurd ... tion,_2009

It is not admitting, it is my opinion and it has valid grounds. I AM AGAINST Kurdistan independence. I already mentioned that. And my opinion has merits.

Rosy vision you have. And you are relying on oil so much. First of all the oil resources is shared by Iraq in general. There is an agreement of oil sharing for whole Iraq. Also, Southern Kurdistan is not a independent nation. Besides, we all see nations with oil, i.e. Azerbaijan, Iran, Iraq, Venezuela, Nigeria where oil did not significantly change the economic of the society. They world is changing. The dynamics of wealth of a nation is different now. And importance of oil is reduced significantly. Now, nations are changing their energy policies to cut oil dependencies to minimum. Did last 6 years, due to oil, did Kurdistan became a Qatar or something? Iraq is dependent on surrounding countries for outside world. You don't expect Syria, Iran, Iraq, Turkey to help a country that has just taking the piece from their country, do you? Kirkuk status is not resolved. If Southern Kurdistan get independence, the first war will be against Iraq because of Kirkuk. Now your American friends there, power balances will change dramatically when your American friends leave.

He said two main parties, there are other Kurdish parties.

The idiots true face comes out, why is this clown allowed to post here? the address clearly stated there is no northern Iraq, only southern Kurdistan... why don't you hop along to another forum?